March 11, 2008
CP or Bust
So recently, I read this manuscript . . . there is no possible way it has ever been seen by the eyes of a crit partner, crit group, or a reader that is not related and blowing sweet felicitation up the backside of the human they birthed. (Or rather, aside from the parental connection–all parents will say it’s great, unless you’re my mom and a former English teacher–sheesh! but I digress, if it did have a pseudo-sorta crit partner, this person needs to be drawn and quartered for the HUGE disservice they have done to the author). I have heard the various debates about crit groups or crit partners or not. Some folks swear by them and some just swear at them.
But there is something to be said for getting a constructive set of eyes to peer at what otherwise might become a much talked about MS, but not for its merits but for its ghastly pitfalls.
Going to Nationals or the like you will hear all the evils of all things writing (along with the joys of writing, don’t get me wrong, it’s a great place to be inspired, but the horror stories, oh the horror…). And those with “former” crit partners can fill you ears with all the mistreatments and injustices they have been dealt by a bad crit partner. And I’ll bet for some, they are underplaying it a bit as not to say, “I brought it on myself by hooking up with crit-partner-from-hell.”
You will also hear those who can’t thank enough the people who have helped them get through the crunch time or plothole pitfalls. It’s such a delicate balance though, I can see why it may be hard for a new writer to find THE ONE who compliments them at their best. But it is WORTH the time weeding through folks! I swear it is! Otherwise when you send out your MS to contests your judge may consider gouging out their eyes and that of the coordinator who sent it to them with every mind-screaming-for-it-to-end newbie mistakes that drives readers and authors alike mad!
I think a good crit partner is like a BFF, when it’s great it’s great. When it’s not great eh, you’ll get through it because they’re worth it. But that’s just the opinion of someone who has had good crit partners. Tell me what y’all think in the “crit or not to crit” debate, I’m curious . . . .
Although it won’t help selling to an agent or publisher, having someone who reads extensively in the genre you write would help. Secondly, if you use a crit partner, I would think having confidence in your own ability is essential, or you may end up editing manuscript parts you shouldn’t. This comes from the unpublished opinion side. :)
Good points!
Also one thing I found, is when you have worked with you MS for so long, you tend to read over certain things. Your brain fixes it rather than letting you see it the way it is. If you can get someone else to read it then you can catch those.
There’s the good, the bad, and the ugly.
I know people who swear by their critters. They’ve developed an understanding, and they “gel” as a partnership.
If you’re that sensitive, leave it to your mom’s opinion. And consider therapy.
I’ve also heard the horror stories, people who pick at every little thing, jealousy, undermining, etc.
And then there are those who fawn over your work, or just don’t have a clue.
I’ve had a coupla bad experiences, both giving and getting. I always thought I had a light touch, but when I pointed out a FEW grammar, spelling, and pov errors to someone (who had ASKED me to!), she sent me a half-hysterical e-mail about throwing in the towel, how she’d never write again, etc., I was going,
Bernard has a point–you need confidence, you need to know what you’re trying to accomplish with your MS, and you need to be able to weed out what works for you and what doesn’t.
your judge may consider gouging out their eyes and that of the coordinator who sent it to them with every mind-screaming-for-it-to-end newbie mistakes that drives readers and authors alike mad!
*whistling*
Funny enough I just blogged about doing your research for this very same reason. I’ve HAD the crit partners from hell. They CAN make or break you. They made me because I had the balls to say “fuck you. I’m doing it my way.” Not every writer does. Which is probably another blog post entirely. That said, I’m really sorry…..and remember I got one too. Remember….
And consider therapy
um yep–met some like that too!
Kinda what you’re saying Ames (but the extreme of this is…) Conversely, I have known people who will join a crit group and won’t change a damn thing. One gal, would read and when we would crit her she’d say, “Well, I have already sent that to publisher x.” then WTF did you waste our time. Or another guy who after a crit pointing out his historical inaccuracy (and it was big things that anyone with a brain would pull out, not just those who read or write historicals know) got up, quit the group right then and there.
REally have nothing to add to what Bernard and Raine said. Amie your comment about making you is related to Bernard’s comment on having confidence in your voice/vision/talents. What it comes down to is, continually honing your own skills and, yes, you (and I’m look at you Anne Rice, in particular, with a hairy eyeball) do need a trusted crit partner, even if it’s your editor.
I’m probably a nightmare CP, but I tend to find all the newbie’s who don’t know WTF a POV violation is, or really anything about craft. I’m probably the one who they will say, “took my heart out and threw it under a bus.”
But…I’ve learned to be tactful, because I was once the newbie who didn’t know WTF a POV violation was, or motivation, or writing a TSTL heroines. Hell, I still am not an expert.
So my opinion on CPs:
If you have an hide like tefflon then it might be helpful to you.
Someone else looking over your work is priceless.
Find someone compatible(sp?) with you and that may take a few or hundred CPs.
Find out if they are a POV Nazi(like myself) and then run in the other direction.
and then run in the other direction
this cracks me up! Can’t tell you how many times I have read, “how about… *ducking*” True my initial inclantation is to strike! But I don’t think I have ever hit… once I have had a chance to read it and realize, they’re right! But again, it’s the fit!
even if it’s your editor
isn’t this a huge conflict?
Saw her on GMA the other day–her new books are vastly different but she makes it sound intersting!
How did I miss the Anne Rice reference. Dear baby jesus, don’t get me started.
And the way I see editors are paid critique partners who can pay you to fix your work.
“True my initial inclantation is to strike!”
So true, but then again, like you, advice I’ve been given is always right. I hate that it’s right, because I’d convinced myself my writing is brillant by that point. Another upside is that when you get an editor’s feedback you’re not inclinced to crumble. Heck when you get a book deal and when you receive your revisions then it’s not completely unknown territory.
erm…. I have used the ‘how about…?’ thing, but only after I explain what my concerns are, and make clear I’m only giving an example of what could be done.
as for the editor being conflict of interest, dunno. But I do hear that some authors are so busy and their writing buddies are also so busy, and they’re at a level where they need very specific type of feedback, that they just send the work directly to their editor (after polishing, of course. No half-assed time wasting material.)
I haven’t read the stuff that got Anne in trouble. I did like/love her earlier stuff. But gawd knows I’ve mentally edited quite a number of books as I’ve them and swore afterwards I’d never read another book by said author.
and I’m look at you Anne Rice, in particular,
Melissa….bless your heart. We were all there once HOWEVER, if it’s like pulling teeth run like hell. Don’t wear yourself down. I did major critiques on a couple of contest entries this weekend and like I said at my blog, some were awesome, but needed a little work, some were perfect and bored me to tears, some were well, obviously by newbies *sigh*
My longwindedass point being sometimes it’s more work than it’s worth to CP with someone and you have to know when to cut your losses.
Melissa…I”m really surprised Denise hadn’t taken a hit out on me yet
Matter of fact today I told her to cut like the first 3-4 pages of her WIP
Another upside is that when you get an editor’s feedback you’re not inclinced to crumble
You do realize you CAN argue with your editor ot say no or whatever…I suggest picking your battles though. That editors set of eyes ARE invaluable.
hey if it sells……..
if not
Another upside is that when you get an editor’s feedback you’re not inclinced to crumble
this makes me think of Simon–he is often booed and hissed at, but rarely wrong–he’s just blunt. Sometimes it’s in the presntation
If it doesn’t sell, I didn’t hurt anything
and Melissa I say that cuz I had edits land on my doorstep yesterday
The edits themselves are easy but I’ve also got to sit and read.
didn’t hurt anything
(ther’s not a wounded smiley…hehehe)
Sometimes it’s in the presntation
And sometimes I”m too lazy to be tactful. The thought however is there
You do realize you CAN argue with your editor ot say no or whatever…
That’s the second time someone has told me that and trust me if I don’t see the point to the change then I let her know. The one thing I did have to let her know (upfront and after the first round of revisions she sent me) is by no means was she ever to add an exclamation point to my MS.
no means was she ever to add an exclamation point to my MS
nearly spit ALL OVER my computer… this is … timely!
Well, in the course of a paragraph she had added 3. I don’t do exclamation points in my writing. (In my personal writing, of course, but not in my books)I cringe when I see them in other people’s work…anyway, long story short she was forbidden from adding any.
I’ve had good ones, I’ve had bad ones ….. The bad ones were mostly when I first started, when all of us were too green to know what the hell we were doing anyway.
That said, I haven’t had much luck with critique groups, to be honest. They either turn out to be cheerleading groups, where nothing is really vetted, and everything is praised. Or they’re the toxic type that nitpicks and edits the voice out of everything. Then there’s the social network that shares stories about family, nitting, their kids … etc, and no writing gets done.
I much prefer critic partners and buddies. Less chance of the “group think” thingie coming into play.
“I don’t do exclamation points in my writing.”
Now, I’ve read books on writing that tell you to leave those exclamations alone, and I’ve heard plenty O authors who have the same aversion to them as you, Melissa.
But I gotta ask…
What do peeps have against the exclamation!?!?! Uh? What?!?!? It’s like…. I dunno….. folks just get fixated–and unfairly so I might add—against certain punctuation marks! I think–and I do A LOT of thinking; take my word for it; honest!–where was I? OH, yeah! I think punctuation should be used with great exuberance; and flagrant disregard; and joyously!!!
Except for periods Periods suck They make things boring Think how much more fun! Reading would be without them?! And writing would be a snap!!
And so…. ends my ode; my public statement of love–and addiction– to the splendid semi-colon, evocative ellipse, dashing emdash, and the exalted exclamation (which, should appear, at least once, on every freaking page, of every freakin book, to emphasize the author’s passionate –and deathless– prose!!!!!!!
I actually had to go to work and miss all this good stuff, lol.
Well, I do !
In fact, I’ve done !!
I’ve also done ?!
Even ...!
And yes, I’ve driven at least one editor insane.
>>by no means was she ever to add an exclamation point to my MS.
Vanessa LOVES ;
Raine LOVES …
Me, I love them all–equally–though I do have to say this little guy – is my absolute fave.
That and well, Italics apparently. I was looking at the copyedited MS of MUS and they also have to mark up the MS for the typesetter so they write ITAL in the margin and there’s a LOT of ITAL in the margins of MUS
I may diss !!!, but I do love me some — and some to get my point across.
And Vanessa Jaye your rebuttal is priceless.